巴寧研究工作室訪談：未來的建筑？

主持：洪人杰，Kulthida Songkittipakdee / Host: Jenchieh Hung, Kulthida Songkittipakdee

對談：Tonkao Panin 泰國巴寧研究工作室主持建筑師/ Interview: Tonkao Panin; Principal Architect of Research Studio Panin, Thailand

記錄：楊清淵/ Transcript: Chingyuan Yang

洪：您作為泰國最重要的建筑教育家，同時也在泰國藝術大學（Silpakorn University）建筑學系任職全職教授，又作為Research Studio Panin主持建筑師，我很感興趣您從事建筑的原因（圖1、2）。

Hung: You are one of the most important role on architectural education in Thailand. And not only teaching at Silpakorn University, but you also be a principal architect at Research Studio Panin. I wonder why you studied architecture and the reason why you became an architect (Picture 1-2)?

Tonkao：我會讀建筑是因為我不知道還有哪些其他專業。事實上，我的母親是位建筑師同時也在泰國藝術大學任教；而我的父親則是藝術家，巧合的是他們兩人都畢業于泰國藝術大學。在我幼年時期，我受到他們很深的影響，不管是藝術、設計或是相關認知，都逐漸讓我走向建筑師這個專業。

Tonkao: I studied architecture because I do not know what else I can do. In fact, my mother is an architect,and my father is an artist, both of them were graduated from Silpakorn University. So I think I have been influenced by them, that why I became an architect.

Kulthida：您完成一系列的住宅作品，并帶著不同的地域性實驗，您是如何將事務所的研究結合到這些住宅設計的呢？

Kulthida: Most of your projects areprivate houses,I am wondering how you canadapt yourresearches in to those programs and functions?

Tonkao：作為泰國藝術大學全職教授，我也在學校教導學生們進行住宅設計與研究，而我感興趣的是“當代住宅如何對應氣候條件，或著說作為建筑如何從不同地域中獲得養分，甚至反應傳統文化”。我們從設計原型或單元型態進行新的探討研究，并將設計作為多樣化呈現，重點是如何將地域研究結合到設計中，如：通風遮陽、空間配置…等。如果說設計中有任何先天性的話，那就是我總會將底層架空，創造零散舒適與通風避雨的空間（圖3）。

Tonkao: Actually, I have a lot of researchesaccording to my work at the school. It is all about development and transformation of houses, “how a contemporary house would adapt to climatic condition? Or how they would learn from vernacular, and tradition?” I have researched the design typologyof vernacular building and adaptedthe research in to my design projects. I think the way of ventilation and space configuration arethemain part of my researches. One of my intension that I always do by making all of my building plans are in shallow shape,so I can have cross ventilation in my building. (Picture 3).

洪：這些建筑項目是否表達了泰國性（Thai-ness），或著泰國建筑的特徵？

Hung: Can those projects represent to the Thai-ness or the identity of Thai architecture?Tonkao：我想泰國建筑在住宅設計方面與十年前或十五年前很不一樣，尤其當您翻起現在的雜志，你會發現越來越多的住宅空間有一股松弛感，并試著在緊密與松弛之間創造流動性。另外，我認為泰國當代建筑與過去十多年前最大的不同是，過去的空間總是傾向封閉、圍合的，但現在越來越多的建筑更開放、自由，甚至更周圍環境有更多對話與交流，這是過去在泰國比較少見的（圖4）。

Tonkao: I think the identity of Thai architecture nowadays, if you look at many of the houses that are published on magazine, you can see they are not dense and not compacted like 10 to 15 years ago. There are more sense on theloosing up of space and make everything more porous; like penetrating all the spaces and letting the air can be penetrate through the spaces. I think this is one of the characteristic that you can actually see in contemporary Thai architecture, nowadays in many of the houses that you did not see 10 years ago. It is because of 10 years ago all the houses were closed off, so maybe they wereoriented internal organization in the middle of the house. I mean all the houses seem to be opened to the natural context more than 10 years ago (Picture 4).

洪：您的建筑思考與實踐方式與西方建筑師關注的很不同，譬如19世紀的建筑師勒·柯布西耶（Le Corbusier），他們在進行建筑設計時總是會有強烈的宣言與意圖。

Hung: l think the way of your design is really different with western architect in19thcentury such as Le Corbusier. The way that they built the house, they had very strong intention behind.

Tonkao：他們的理想與企圖心很強，認為即便只是一個住宅也要有很強大的宣示，就像是柯布西耶或密斯·凡德羅（Mies van der Rohe）等建筑師。但我不認為我需要那樣，我也不認為住宅我所設計的建筑需要表達這個世紀的潮流或反應某種宣言，但我認為我像是柯布西耶或密斯那樣，完整的表達對于住宅的想像，并創造獨特的基地涵構和完善業主需求（圖5、6）。

Tonkao: They have the idealistic, a notion about what kind of house would be. They have the statements,the manifesto like Le Corbusier or Mies van der Rohe, but I do not have that intention. I do not think the houses that I design is a statement or a movement of the era or anything. I do not try to solve the big problem, but I respect their thinking that they could see the totality of their works as solving some problems or answering to international questions or universal questions. However, I do not think my work can answer to universal questions because each projects answer to each clients. Especially only for that site, or that client, or that situation, or that context (Picture 5-6).

洪：如果我們談到泰國知名建筑師Duangrit Bunnag，他在1998年亞洲金融危機（Asian Financial Crises）期間開始了他的獨立事務所Duangrit Bunnag Architect Limited（DBALP），在之后10年中他完成一系列度假酒店，并獲得無數建筑大獎。我想問的是，為何20多年過去，泰國青年建筑師依舊以度假酒店為主要項目來源？

Hung: If we talk about Duangrit Bunnag in 1998, he has started Duangrit Bunnag Architect Limited(DBALP) during Asian Financial Crisis, and during 10 years his office finished many resort projects.I am wondering why young generation architects are still working on this kind of project such as hotel, resort or single house project as 20 years ago.

Tonkao：酒店項目能讓金錢運轉更快，因此成本與經濟在短期就能看到成效。相反地，由于政府項目的預算很有限，我更期待這些項目在泰國能有突破與進步，進而促使泰國能與二十年前的城市有較大的改變?；氐骄频甑脑掝}，這些項目能讓建筑師從空間概念發展到具體形態，也讓泰國建筑師更喜歡與酒店業主合作，進而在二十年中泰國酒店發展的比任何地方都好。譬如設計醫院，許多建筑師會懷疑是否能在這么大的項目中嘗試新的空間與形態；但相對于酒店，業主與使用者更期待看到不同空間與形態的嘗試，也讓建筑師們愿意花更多時間在酒店設計上（圖7、8）。

Tonkao: I think these are the programs that earn more money comparing with other intuitional project. In fact, my wish is to see the government project, intuitional project to be developed further, however because of the limitation of the government, so we do not see that coming. So all those projects are happening but they appear in similar situation whichwere happened in 20 years ago. But with these resorts or houses,these programsallow architect to transform developing their ideas, so the Thai architects like to work with program that opens up more opportunities for exploring. For example, doing the hospital project, there are many architects in Thailand would hesitate to dobecause it is a complicated project and it does not allow you to explore the space and the form, so I think that why we see architect being so happy to work on a program like resort (Picture 7-8).

洪：能否談談泰國建筑師與西方建筑師的差異性？

Hung: DoesThai architects have different approach comparing with the western architects?

Tonkao：我認為不應該把泰國建筑師全數放在一個籃子，因為每個人的實踐方式都不同。就像您之前所提到的Bangkok Project Studio主持建筑師Boonserm Premthada，他正逐漸讓建筑與社會兩者產生重大意義；但如果您說我或是Jun Sekino，我們更擅長處理空間議題與功能關系。如果您說像是CHAT architects主持建筑師Chatpong Chuenrudeemol，他則在這兩個群體之間，一方面帶有刻意批判的設計元素，一方面反應行為模式與日常生活。因此我認為泰國建筑師有非常多樣的類型，這是與西方不同的。

Tonkao: I think it kinds of difficult to put Thai architect in one basket, because everyone is different.However, if you talk about Boonserm Premthada,he is addressing architecture very differently from other people. His architectures propose monumental as he said; it sorts of create experience rather than dealing the daily life. If you talk about other architects, like me or Jun Sekino, we are dealing with processissues and programs. If we talk about Chatpong Chuenrudeemol, he is between Boonserm Premthada and me, I think his works sometime are very highly rhetorical, but at the same time he deals with sort of the habit and people life. So I think Thai architects have many different categories, and itis very different with western countries.

圖1、2，北柳府知識文化中心/ Knowledge Center of Chachoengsao（攝影/ Photo：Spaceshift Studio）

圖3、4，DN住宅╱House DN（攝影╱Photo：Beer Singnoi）

洪：事實上這也是我的問題，當您看著新加坡建筑師，就會發現他們不彰顯風格，但建筑物卻看起來非常的新加坡。但回到泰國，如您所言泰國建筑師非常多樣化，我們無法找到一個共通性或是相同類別，但結果怎會導向誰喜歡Boonserm Premthada的設計風格，誰則喜歡Chatpong Chuenrudeemol的設計風格。

Hung: This is also one of my question, like when you look at Singaporean architects, you can feel the architects do notneed to talk about their styles, but each building lookslike the same and it is only specific in Singapore. But as you mentioned, Thai architects are very diverse, so we cannot categorize them. And the result is only who like Boonserm Premthada’swork or Chatpong Chuenrudeemol’s work, etc.

Tonkao：我想新加坡也具備著多樣性，但新加坡建筑師會有更多的共通性是在于他們的面積受限，也會讓實踐導向同質化。相比泰國，我們的土地面積比新加坡大很多，同時我們也存在著比新加坡更不同的環境關系需要建筑師去面對，因此這是回復您所問的，為何泰國建筑師的多樣性如此巨大，因為我們所要面對的環境差異性比新加坡建筑師更多。此外像是Boonserm Premthada所設計的羅勇府班昌市政廳（Baan Chang Town Hall）和素輦府大象王國（Elephant World），他所處理的環境問題非常獨特，也導致他能做出特別的回應與設計。我認為我們所面臨的問題很不同，也讓我們不僅思考功能問題，更要解決環境議題等因素。

Tonkao: I think Singapore has sort of the certain thing which is not national stylistic of representation,but many Singaporean architects have more commonality because of their limited size of land and the homogenization of practice. Compared to Thailand, our space is much larger than Singaporeand we have so many different kind of context and architect need to deal with it. That why the diversity of Thai architects is so obvious.For example, Boonserm Premthada designed theBaan Chang Town Hall andElephant World.He deals with very unique situation which of course it would never be existed in Singapore. But once, if he designs a project such as a house in the middle of Bangkok, he willcompletely deal with different kind of question, which allowshim to have different types and different kinds of answer to these questionsat the same time. It is not only each architect is different, but even the same architect who deals with the question quite differently, also has different answer because of the diversity of context.

Kulthida：這個問題讓我想到食物，如果我們想吃新加坡食物，會想到的永遠是那一兩種… 但是泰國食物，則有太多種選擇，更別說還有無數種的調味料。

Kulthida: Actually this question reminded me about the food. If we want to try the Singapore food,we may just know one or two dishes. But for Thai food, there are many kinds.

Tonkao：事實上我與教授才在晚餐中所聊到，他說泰式料理很不同，每道菜都有很復雜的香辛料，而且能在同一時間感覺到又甜又辣。從料理這件事情便能反應泰國人的特色，我們并沒有一個完整的圖像，或許傳統建筑有，但在現實城市如曼谷、清邁、普吉甚至還有些偏遠地區，這些城市逐漸發展的更完整，趨向完整但又異質的涵構性。這樣的多樣性與復雜性從地區發展而來，舉個例子像景觀事務所Shma所設計的森林之宅（Forested House），這個項目最近被刊登在泰國《Design Something》頭條。這個住宅在非常有限的土地中占滿整個地塊，但建筑上方卻有滿滿的樹，同時若留意到周圍環境，會發現差異性非常大，因為一邊是低矮住宅，但另一邊則是高層酒店公寓。在這個案例中，可以看到即便是一個住宅，也面對著相當戲劇性的環境關系；因此不僅是泰國建筑師類型多樣，即便是相同建筑案，建筑設計也具備多種回復，而這正是泰國當代建筑的最大特色。

Tonkao: In fact, this is one thing that I discussedin my dinnerwith Professor David Leatherbarrow who came to have a public lecture in Bangkok. He said Thai food is very different to many other food because the food is so complex and contradictory at the same time. Some dishes are very sweet and some dishes are sweet and spicy. I think it is same with everything, for Thai people,wedo not have any idealistic image of one thing, but I know if we talk about tradition Thai house about 100 years ago, of course you would have one image. But nowadays, we have different character of city such as Bangkok, Chiangmai, Phuket and we have several rural areas. And I think everything have grown into a completely different way, itbecomes a completely different context. This diversity and complexity come from that. For example,Forested House designedby one of principal landscape architect from Shma, it just featured in design mediacalled Design Something. This house hasvery limited piece of land. He grew a lot of trees in whole piece of land. At the same time if you look at the photo, the context around his house is completely different, one side is a low house with a lot of tree and another side is sort of the apartment building. So within one house we have to deal with different types of context. It is not only the several architects, sometime in the same project, you need to answer diverse of questions. Therefore, this is the characteristic of Thai contemporary architecture.

Kulthida：能否分享泰國當代建筑正走向哪個方向？

Kulthida: Do you think which directionThai contemporary architecture is going?

Tonkao：我期待的是看到建筑師更專注于文化層面，并非將建筑執業視為一個狹隘的領域，更要全面與完善。我們需要更集中精神讓建筑置入后能連動相關事物，不只是經濟層面，還包括政治、社會、文化等議題。我想泰國建筑之所以讓人期待，是因為它有很多不可預期的可能性，可以更好甚至可以回應更多問題。目前，泰國建筑師的視野相對集中于獨立實踐，并沒有與太多層面發生關系；相較于中國，我相信在那邊的建筑真實地回應社會與文化議題。我們有更多的期待看到泰國當代建筑中的建筑師以及青年實踐者，不僅在社會實踐上做出貢獻，另外也需要不斷質疑項目本身是否與社會發生關系，這將會引導泰國建筑走向對的未來（圖9）。

Tonkao: I think what I want to see that architect needs to be a lot more concern with culture in general. It is not only to see the architecture as an object finishing by itself. But we need to be concern about how this project is going to be situate in relation to other thing that are happening; not only the economic but also the political and a lot other social cultural issues that are changing in Thailand. For nowadays Thai architects see architecture as autonomous discipline not so much related to other things. I think architecture discipline in China is a lot more related to culture and social issues, much more than the architecture in Thailand.That is what I want to see, of course there are some people who are doing the social work, but I think every single architects and every young architects in Thailand need to ask the relationship between their projects and social issues that they are going on at the time (Picture 9).

圖5、6，BT住宅╱House BT（攝影╱Photo：Spaceshift Studio）

圖7、8，PRY1度假酒店/ PRY1（攝影/ Photo：Spaceshift Studio）

圖9 加拉信醫院/ Kalasin Thonburi Hospital（攝影/Photo：Research Studio Panin）