除了死，我們就不能聊點更高興的事？

Melissa Block （Host）： For many years， readers of The New Yorker have laughed along with 1）cartoonist Roz Chast—laughed at her 2）angsty， 3）shaky characters， her wry sense of the absurd. Now， in her new illustrated 4）memoir， Chast mixes humor with heartache. The book is about the last years of her parents and her relationship with them as both their only child and conflicted 5）caretaker. Her mother， Elizabeth， and father， George， married nearly 70 years， 6）virtually 7）inseparable and very different personalities.

Roz Chast： My mother was the queen of all she surveyed and knew everything. And my father totally agreed.

Block： Though her parents were increasingly 8）frail and 9）forgetful， Roz Chast says she had never talked with them about end of life issues. It is， she says， sort of a horrible topic， which is why she called her memoir “Can’t We Talk About Something More Pleasant？” Reality struck when her mother， aged 93， fell off a 10）step stool.

Chast： She was in bed for a few days and it was clear that what was going on was more than the fall off the ladder. She didn’t want to go to the hospital. She was afraid. But eventually， she did and that was the beginning of their sort of slide into the next part of old age—you know， the last chapters.

Block： Well， it sounds like it was at that point when your mother was taken to the hospital that you realized that your father had slipped pretty far into 11）dementia in a way that you hadn’t realized before.

Chast： Yes. As long as he was in their familiar apartment with my mother sort of steering the ship， things were holding their own. But when he came to live with us， I realized he was more far gone than I’d known.

Block： You do have a cartoon in here where you’ve taken your dad out shopping.

Chast： Ah.

Block： And this really made me laugh because you’re trying to get him a sweater and he tells you I can’t wear that.

Chast： Yes.

Block： What was his reason？

Chast： He said， I can’t wear that. And I said， why not？ And he goes， it’s red. And I look at him and he goes， 12）communism.（laughter）

Chast： And he， I... （laughs）

Block： I’m writing that down.

Chast： Oh yeah. Oh yeah. But sometimes he would ask me， like， where do I live？ You know， there were just aspects of this part of old age that I knew nothing about.

Block： The way you describe it， things did fall apart pretty quickly and you moved your parents into assisted living where you live in Connecticut and...

Chast： Yes.

Block： ...as time goes on， one of the things that you write about is how financially draining the care became. And you have this line， I felt like a disgusting person worrying about the money. And it’s such a common concern but it must really pain you to put that on the page.

Chast： Yeah. It is， you do feel disgusting. I mean， you feel like， oh， what kind of person am I？ This is what that money was for. And， you know， how dare I be anxious about it or sad about it or resentful about it？ So I don’t know， it’s just very， it’s very complicated.

Block： Your father ended up dying in 2007. He was under 13）hospice care and he was 95 years old but had been in what sounds like really 14）steep decline for a matter of months.

Chast： Yeah.

Block： Were their lessons you drew about things that you wish had been different or could have made the end of his life any more tolerable？

Chast： No. I don’t know if there’s anything to be really learned from this. When I hear about people who want to spend a lot of money figuring out how we can live ’till 120， that upsets me for a lot of reasons. I feel like these are people who don’t really know anybody over 95 or maybe they met them on a really good day. People are not in good shape and everything is falling apart.

Block： Your mother lived for several more years and her decline was slower. And it’s interesting that you do find humor in her increasing dementia as time goes on and some 15）surreal stories that she would start telling you.

Chast： Oh， yeah. Well， yeah， these really bizarre stories.

I did them in 17）comic strip form. This one is called “Ass Full of 18）Buckshot.” There was a break-in in the place. The place is what I call the place where they were staying， assisted living.

Block： The nursing home. Yeah.

Chast： Yeah. Yeah. All the men were moved over to the women’s side. I shot the 19）intruder with my BB gun. I gave him an ass full of buckshot. I’d like to stand him on a stage， pull down his pants and take out the 20）pellets one by one in front of everybody.

Block： Do remember what you were thinking when she told you that story？

Chast： I was thinking， I’m writing this down and I’m going to draw this up.

（laughter）

Block： This is a cartoon just waiting to be drawn.

Chast： This is a cartoon， yeah. Yeah. Well， somebody—just actually， I was talking to somebody yesterday who said the worst thing for a parent is to have a child who’s a writer. Block： I’m talking with the cartoonist Roz Chast. Her memoir is titled “Can’t We Talk About Something More Pleasant？” Your mother does seem in the end of her life to have had great 21）tenacity. She survived a number of turns for the worse. And at the very end you drew her over several months as she’s lying in her bed. You say she wasn’t talking， she was mostly sleeping and then finally， you drew her in death in September of 2009. And you have a note at the bottom of that drawing that says， my mother died tonight at 8：28. And they’re lovely pen and ink line drawings. And I wonder if it was 22）instinctive of you as an artist to draw her through those months or if part of you was uncomfortable with that.

Chast： I was really not that uncomfortable. I don’t know why. I think drawing is what I do and it was a way of being with her and of paying attention. And she wasn’t talking. I mean， I think it would have been far worse for me to sit with her and like check my email or something. I wanted to look at her.

Block： As you think about this whole process for you and your parents， what do you wish you had known about end-of-life issues and maybe 23）misperceptions or things that you weren’t prepared for？

Chast： One of the things is there’s a lot of paperwork. There’s just a lot of stuff to do. I think sometimes I felt so stressed by everything else I was dealing with， like taking care of their apartment and figuring out like where do I send their rent checks and who’s their landlord. And I hated that. That was like this is horrible. （laughter） Just weird stuff. I mean， it wasn’t just like， I’m sad， my parents are dying and oh， let’s all like hold hands and be sad. It was like all this junk， you know.

Block： Layers and layers of junk.

Chast： Layers and layers of that kind of stuff.

Block： I wonder if your experience with this and with your own parents， has it changed the conversation that you have with your own children？ I think they’re in their 20s now.

Chast： Yes. Well...

Block： Have you had that conversation？

Chast： We haven’t. We haven’t. I mean， I’m still avoiding. Although， I did tell my daughter， who’s an artist and a writer， and I said， feel free to use this as material. You know， when you go have to deal with me， this is material and I want you to use it.

Block： But in terms of the talk...

Chast： The talk.

Block： ...with your children， you have’t gone there？

Chast： Not yet. And we should but we’re avoiding it because， can’t we talk about something more pleasant？（laughter）

Block： That’s New Yorker cartoonist Roz Chast. And that is the title of her new book， “Can’t We Talk About Something More Pleasant？” Roz， thanks so much.

Chast： Thank you.

（soundbite of music）

梅麗莎·布洛克（主持人）：多年來，《紐約客》（譯者注：是一份美國知識、文藝類的綜合雜志，內容覆蓋新聞報道、文藝評論、散文、漫畫、詩歌、小說，以及紐約文化生活動向等。）的讀者們都與漫畫家羅茲·查斯特一道歡樂——為她陰郁、脆弱的人物以及荒謬的幽默捧腹大笑。現在，在她的新插畫回憶錄中，查斯特在幽默中融入了悲傷的元素。這本書是關于她父母最后的時光和作為他們唯一的孩子以及處境艱難的看護人，她與父母的關系。她的母親伊麗莎白和父親喬治結婚將近70年了，他們個性不同卻又難以割舍對方。

羅茲·查斯特：我的媽媽是調查女王，她無所不曉。我爸爸也完全同意。

布洛克：盡管她的父母日漸虛弱而且健忘，羅茲·查斯特從來沒有跟他們討論過死亡的話題。他說，這是一個可怕的話題。這就是為什么她把回憶錄命名為《我們就不能聊點更高興的事？》。當母親在93歲那年從梯凳上摔下來時，現實狠狠地打擊了她。

查斯特：她臥床好幾天，但是很明顯，事情遠遠不只是從梯子上摔下來。她不想去醫院，她很害怕。但是最后，她還是去了，這就是他們開始進入老年的下一個階段——你們知道的，最后的人生。

布洛克：嗯，聽起來你是在母親被送進醫院之后，才意識到你父親老年癡呆的程度是你過去沒有想到的。

查斯特：對。只要他在媽媽的帶領下在他們熟悉的房子里住，就沒有多大問題。但是當他和我們住在一起的時候，我就發現他的病比我知道的要嚴重。

布洛克：你畫了你帶父親去購物的漫畫。

查斯特：啊。

布洛克：我覺得這真的很搞笑，因為你想給他買件毛衣，但是他告訴你：“我不能穿它。”

查斯特：對。

布洛克：他的理由是？

查斯特：他說：“我不能穿它。”然后我說：“為什么？”然后他說：“這是紅色的啊。”接著我

看著他，他繼續說道：“這是共

產主義啊。”（笑）

查斯特：他真的，我……（笑）

布洛克：我把它記了下來。

查斯特：哦，對，哦，對。但是有時候他會問我像是“我住在哪兒”這種問題，你知道的，對于老年人這方面的情況我一無所知。

布洛克：根據你的描述，事情真的很快變糟。你把父母送進了你在康乃狄克州的家附近的老人養護中心……

查斯特：嗯。

布洛克：……隨著時間的流逝，你寫的其中一件事是對父母的看護讓你變得多么地拮據。你寫了這句話，“我感覺自己像一個惡心的人在擔心錢的問題。”雖然這是大家都關心的問題，但是你把它寫出來肯定很痛苦。

查斯特：嗯，是的，你的確會感到很惡心。我意思是，你會想，噢，我是個怎樣的人啊？這就是金錢的用途。你知道的，我怎么敢為它焦慮、悲傷或者厭惡它？所以我真的不知道，這真的是很復雜的事。

布洛克：你爸爸在2007年去世了，當時他95歲，住在療養院，但是看來他的身體狀況在幾個月內就迅速惡化了。

查斯特：對。

布洛克：你把他們的經歷畫出來是想標新立異還是想讓你爸爸在最后的日子里面過得更加安逸？

查斯特：不是這樣。我不知道從這里能學到什么。當我聽說人們花大量的錢去研究我們怎么活到120歲時，這讓我因為多方面的原因而感到沮喪。我感覺這些人都沒有真正了解95歲多的人，或者碰見這些老年人是在他們狀態很好的時候。這些老人身體狀況不好，一切都開始變得糟糕。

布洛克：你母親的身體狀況沒有惡化得那么快，她多活了好幾年。而且有趣的是，隨著日子一天天過去，她的老年癡呆癥越來越嚴重，她開始跟你說一些離奇的故事，而你從中找到了樂趣。

查斯特：噢，對。好吧，嗯，這些都是非常古怪的故事。我把它們畫成了連環畫。題目叫《裝滿子彈的屁股》。有人闖入了這個地方，這個地方我平時管它叫老人養護中心。

布洛克：嗯，養老院。

查斯特：嗯，嗯。（媽媽是這樣說的：）所有的男人都跑到女人那邊，我用空氣槍射擊了那個闖入者，我把他的屁股打滿了子彈。我想讓他站在臺上，脫下他的褲子，在眾人面前將子彈一顆一顆拿出來。

布洛克：當她跟你說起這個故事的時候，你還記得當時是怎么想的嗎？

查斯特：我在想，我要把它記下來畫成漫畫。

（笑）

布洛克：這是一個醞釀中的漫畫。

查斯特：對，對，這是一個漫畫。好吧，有個人——事實上，我昨天跟某個人聊天的時候，他說對父母來說最糟糕的事就是有一個當作家的孩子。

布洛克：我在和漫畫家羅茲·查斯特聊天。她的回憶錄名字叫《我們就不能聊點更高興的事？》。在你母親最后的歲月里，她確實表現出了很強的毅力，度過了很多難關。到她生命即將結束之際，你連續幾個月都在畫她臥病在床的情景。你說她不言語，大部分的時間都在睡覺，而后在2009年9月，你把她的死用畫筆記錄了下來。在那幅漫畫下面，你寫了一行字：我的媽媽于今晚8：28逝世。它們是很可愛的鋼筆畫。我在想，在那幾個月你為你母親作畫，是出自于一位畫家的本能，還是你當時其實并不自在。

查斯特：我真的沒有那么不自在。我不知道為什么。我想我就是在畫畫，這是陪伴媽媽以及關心她的一種方式。她一直不說話，我的意思是，如果我坐在她身邊，像是在查閱電子郵件或者別的什么事那樣的話，這樣感覺會更槽。我想仔細地端詳她。布洛克：現在回想起你和你父母相處的整個歷程，你希望能事先了解到什么呢？是生命結束的話題、誤解還是你沒作好準備的事？

查斯特：其中一件事就是有很多文字工作。有許多事情要做。我想有時候我在處理別的事情的時候會感動很沮喪，像是打理他們的房子，查出他們的房東是誰，去哪里給他們交房租。我很討厭做這些事，這真的很恐怖。（笑）這都是些怪事。我意思是，它不只是像“我很傷心，我爸媽快死了”，或者，“噢，讓我們手拉手悲傷”，而是，你知道的，像垃圾一樣（討人厭）。

布洛克：一堆一堆的垃圾。

查斯特：一堆一堆那樣的垃圾。

布洛克：我在想，你處理這些事情以及和你父母關系的經歷，會不會改變你和自己孩子的對話？我想他們現在都有20歲吧。

查斯特：對，好吧……

布洛克：你們有過類似的對話嗎？

查斯特：我們還沒有過這樣的對話。我的意思是，我還在避免。盡管，我確實跟我當藝術家兼作家的女兒說過，你可以用我人生最后的時光作為素材。你知道的，當你需要照料我的時候，這是我希望你用的素材。

布洛克：但是說到“那種對話”……

查斯特：那種對話。

布洛克：……就是你和孩子們要談論（死亡）的話題，你跟他們聊過沒有？查斯特：還沒有。我們應該要聊的，但是我們一直在回避，因為，我們就不能聊點更高興的事？（笑）

布洛克：這就是《紐約客》的漫畫家羅茲·查斯特。她的新書書名是《我們就不能聊點更高興的事？》。羅茲，非常感謝你。

查斯特：謝謝。

（音樂片段）