未來就是希望所在

The Future is Where Hope Lies——An interview with the science fiction writer Fei Dao

在晚清時期，儒勒·凡爾納的《從地球到月球》等西方科幻作品被翻譯成中文，中國的科幻小說便隨之發(fā)展起來，如今它己然征服了西方：在2015年，亞洲科幻首次獲得雨果獎，那就是劉慈欣的科幻作品《三體》;2016年，郝景芳的小說《北京折疊》也獲得該獎項。今天的中國科幻己進入一個普遍繁榮的階段，這個階段的特點是：粉絲極其活躍，并且和睦共處;有像吳巖和宋明煒這樣的學者教授在大學層面上推廣、研究并教授這一文學體裁;也有韓松、劉慈欣和王晉康等作家的高質(zhì)量創(chuàng)新作品，這些作品的新潮主題除了或多或少直接地反映了國家和全球問題以外，還與中國的國家夢想結(jié)合在一起。這些元素意味著中國制造的科幻小說開始走進西方的聚光燈中心，使其越來越受到非中國讀者的關(guān)注，這是一個由科幻迷、漢學家和無性別差異的讀者構(gòu)成的群體，他們被這個特別疏遠的“新穎性文學”激發(fā)起興趣，這其中不乏美國前任總統(tǒng)奧巴馬。對于西方來說，這一文學類型代表了一面鏡子，同時又是一個關(guān)于文化差異的窗口，一個中國面向世界的窗口。飛氘（賈立元）是一位專門研究中國科幻小說的學者，也是一位多產(chǎn)作家;清華大學比較文學博士和創(chuàng)作寫作教授，是一位非常多產(chǎn)又有趣的中國“80后”作家。這次就讓我們和他一起坐下來暢談科幻小說、中國文化和未來。

作者：在您的作品中，您經(jīng)常將對技術(shù)的興趣與中國文化分析相結(jié)合，這兩種元素的相互作用是如何通過當代中國科幻反映出來的？

飛氘：一百多年前，中國科幻開始萌芽，緣起于現(xiàn)代西方科技的傳入，中國本土的小說開始模仿外國的科幻作品，把對科技、未來、外星的想象納入中國的小說中。科技本身也可以算是一種“文化”吧，怎么把它融入中國本土的文化中，以及融入之后會遇到什么樣的問題，一直是中國科幻的一個主要話題。既有積極的方面，也有消極的方面。積極的，比如，晚清時的小說家希望把西方的強大科技與中國的道德融合，創(chuàng)造一個科技發(fā)達又符合儒家理想的烏托邦，最典型的代表是吳趼人的《新石頭記》;消極的，比如當代作家韓松的作品，像《美女狩獵指南》，科技的發(fā)達被服務于最黑暗的原始獸欲，令人感受到技術(shù)帶來的新的壓迫。如果說中國科幻在這方面有什么特色的話，也許可以說：現(xiàn)代理性精神中演變出來的科學和技術(shù)，不是從中國本土文化自然生成的，如何接納這種文化，保證它能引領(lǐng)中國走向光明的未來，成為現(xiàn)代中國的一種焦慮。舉例來說，不久之前，中國還沒有一位諾貝爾科技獎的獲得者，成為中國人心頭的一個巨大焦慮。

作者：在您的一本關(guān)于孔子的小說中，他回到泰山，試圖“揭開中國文明的奧秘”。您是希望復興中國古老的文化價值觀還是某種啟蒙運動？

飛氘：古今中外的所有偉大人物，其實都會面臨一些最基本的問題：宇宙是什么，人類是什么，人類在宇宙中的命運如何，諸如此類的問題。為了探索宇宙的真理而不惜犧牲生命，為了廣大的普通人而奉獻自我，這些行動，始終在繼續(xù)。所以我覺得，古代和現(xiàn)代，或者說歷史和現(xiàn)實，東方和西方，總能發(fā)現(xiàn)一些精神上相通的地方。所以我才讓古代的人們走進科幻的宇宙，但這并不表示我主張古代文化要在今天全面復興。相反，我在最基本的立場上，是一個現(xiàn)代人，是擁護啟蒙和現(xiàn)代的。毫無疑問，今天的中國，還有很多“前現(xiàn)代”的東西，是我非常不喜歡的。我喜歡傳統(tǒng)文化價值中的一些精華，比如人與人之間的謙和、溫情，對家庭關(guān)系的重視等等，但我們的生活方式已經(jīng)徹底變化了，當宇宙開發(fā)、賽博格、人工智能等問題越來越切近的時候，我們正走入一個未知的新時代，我們需要創(chuàng)造一些新的價值。

作者：通過分析韓松的作品，您曾經(jīng)寫過他的“鬼魅中國”就像一個動態(tài)發(fā)展的怪物，它的曲折前進，是現(xiàn)代技術(shù)與“五千年內(nèi)在邏輯”之間相遇的產(chǎn)物，這被稱為“東方精神”。您如何定義“你的中國”？

飛氘：在《中國科幻大片》這部小說集里，我開始有意識地將科幻構(gòu)想與對自己國家的想象融合起來。偶然地，我在西方科幻小說、好萊塢科幻電影提供的種種科幻構(gòu)思中，看到了可以和中國的歷史、神話人物組合起來的可能性。我讓古老中國的英雄、圣賢、叛徒闖入了科幻的世界里，讓他們面臨宇宙坍塌、太陽熄滅、對抗Matrix等等的命運，我想知道如果他們面臨這些困境，會做何等的選擇。突然間，我發(fā)現(xiàn)了理解自己這個民族的另一種方式。對于歷史老師來說，這顯然是“虛假”的方式，它并沒有讓我對“真實”的歷史有更多的理解。然而，就像所有人都會引用的那句名言，“一切歷史都是當代史”，所以我重新想象那些想要拯救蒼生的英雄壯舉，讓它們在一個科幻的宇宙里再次上演，然后有了全新的風格，和一種讓我自己渾身起雞皮疙瘩的感受。這種感受讓我確信，那些逝去的過往，在我的皮膚上復活了。我覺得，我小說中的中國，既有非常Gloomy的一面，也有非常熱情的一面，因為我自己的性格，還是對世界懷有期待，對偉大和崇高的行為滿懷敬意，我希望希望世界變得比從前更好一些，人類比從前更進步一些。

作者：您什么時候開始寫科幻小說的？為什么？哪位作者對你影響最大？

飛氘：我從初中時代就開始看科幻小說，我喜歡這種類型的作品，它和我不切實際、喜歡幻想的性格很相符，我喜歡那些超越日常的世界。所以當我開始寫作的時候，就確信總有一天會選擇科幻的。

對我的寫作影響最大的作家，基本上都是20世紀的作家。我喜歡那種想象力異常豐富的作家，比如魯迅、鄭淵潔、王小波，還有卡爾維諾、馬爾克斯。20世紀之前的作家，我也能夠欣賞，比如托爾斯泰、曹雪芹。但是，我總覺得在內(nèi)在的氣質(zhì)上，還是20世紀的作家更能引起我的共鳴。

作者：您是否同意中國科幻小說有其獨特之處，因為中國過去、現(xiàn)在和未來同時存在于同一時空？

飛氘：同意。至少在魯迅的時候就已經(jīng)提出了這種說法。即便是在今天，仍能看到很古老的行為模式和很現(xiàn)代、前衛(wèi)的舉動并存，這是中國人必須面臨的挑戰(zhàn)。中國地域太大了，它以空間的廣袤和多樣性，包容了不同的時間切片，不同時代的事物、價值觀，都能找到生存空間。上海的陸家嘴，和許多最貧窮的山村，代表著完全不同的時間樣本，這很有意思。我猜測，沒有切身體會過這一點的外國人，就不太容易打破自己對于“中國”的任何一種刻板的印象。

作者：韓松曾經(jīng)說過：“中國現(xiàn)實本身就是科幻小說。”您對此有何看法？

飛氘：我很同意。這句話可以從非常多的角度進行理解，這就是它的妙處。然而當它被說得過多的時候，可能也會逐漸失去它的思想震撼力。不管怎么說，要認識中國的現(xiàn)實實在太難了，一點也不比學會相對論更容易。

作者：在您看來，科幻比其他文學體裁更適合描述像中國的未來嗎？您如何在寫作中處理中國現(xiàn)實？

飛氘：應該這么說：當一個作品要以合理的方式描繪中國的未來，或者說在“當下”中孕育未來趨勢的時候，就已經(jīng)具備了科幻的特征，可以被認為是一部科幻性質(zhì)的作品了。很多人明明寫了科幻作品，卻害怕自己的作品被貶低，于是強調(diào)“借用科幻的構(gòu)思”“表面上是一個科幻故事”等說法，這讓我很困惑。他寫的明明就是科幻小說，之所以拒絕承認，只是因為人們對“科幻”本身有太多的偏見。就像前面所說，中國的現(xiàn)實太難認識了，比如北京的房價，恐怕就連諾貝爾經(jīng)濟學獎得主也把握不好。所以我的寫作中，還沒辦法很好地處理現(xiàn)實問題，這是我個人的局限性。

作者：在您的寫作中，未來扮演的角色是什么？

飛氘：未來，就是我特別期待到來的時刻。盡管我會在寫作中討論死亡的問題，但是我自己總是在身體健康的時候，幻想自己還可以活很多年——這一點上我一點也沒有研究者應該有的嚴謹態(tài)度，不想去考慮別的可能性——現(xiàn)在不理想的生活，總會在未來更理想，現(xiàn)在那些折磨著人類的可怕疾病，總會在未來被治愈。這就是未來對我的意義。所謂“未來”，在我的寫作中，就是那個我本人無法親眼見證。所以只能通過寫作恣意去構(gòu)造的神奇地方。未來，就是希望所在的地方。

In the late Qing dynasty （1840-1911 A.D.）， Jules Verne's From the Earth tothe Moon and other Western science fiction works were translated intoChinese， along with which the Chinese science fiction started to develop.Now the Chinese science fiction has won the hearts of Western readers. In2015， the Hugo Award went to an Asian science fiction novel， Liu Cixin's sci-fiwork The Three-body Problem for the first time. In 2016， Hao Jingfang's novelFolding Beijing also won the award. Today's Chinese science fiction industryis going through a general booming stage. There are some characteristics ofthis stage： fans are literally active and establish a rapport with each other;scholars and professors like Wu Yan， Song Mingwei promote， research into，and teach these works in universities; writers such as Han Song， Liu Cixin andWang Jinkang have produced high-quality and innovative works whose up-to-date themes， not just directly reflect more or less the national and globalissues， but also stay close to China's national dreams. These characteristicsmean that Chinese-made science fiction novels have begun to move closer tothe western spotlight， thus attracting more and more attention from readersin other countries. Intrigued by the alien \"novelty literature\"， the reader groupconsists of sci-fi fans， sinologists， gender-neutral readers， and even the formerU.S. President Barack Obama. As for the West， this literary genre functionsas a mirror， and at the same time as a window of cultural differences and awindow to the world for China. Fei Dao， aka Jia Liyuan， is a scholar specializedin Chinese science fiction， a doctor of Comparative Literature and a professorteaching creative writing in Tsinghua University， a post-80s prolific andinteresting Chinese writer. Now let us sit down and have a discussion about thescience fiction and the Chinese culture and future with Fei Dao.

Author： In your works， you often combine yourinterest in technology and the analysis of the culture. Howdoes the contemporary Chinese science fiction reflect theinteraction between these two elements '？

Fei Dao： More than 100 years ago， the Chinese sciencefiction was budding as a result of the introduction ofmodern western technology. Chinese native novels beganto imitate foreign sci-fi works， and then included fantasiesabout technology， future and aliens into Chinese novels.Technology itself can also be regarded as a kind of \"culture\".The problems about how to integrate the technology intoChinese culture and what problems would arise haveremained as a maj or theme of Chinese science fictionand the exploration reflects both positive and negativeaspects. As for the positive side， the novelists in the lateQing dynasty， for example， hoped to integrate the powerfulwestern technology with Chinese morality and create atechnologically advanced Utopia which is also conformingto Confucian ideals. The most representative work is WuJianren's The NewStory of Stone. As for the negative side，in Beauty Hunting Guide by contemporary writer HanSong， for example， the development of technology servedfor the darkest and primitive sexual desire， which madepeople feel new repression caused by technology. In termsof characteristics of Chinese science fiction in this respect，we should in the first place， recognize that science andtechnology， which is not cultivated in traditional Chineseenvironment， has evolved with a spirit of sense. And how toaccept science and technology， and make them lead Chinato a brighter future has become a modern anxiety spreadin Chinese society. For example， the long- awaited Chinesenational winning of a Nobel Prize for science once remainedan acute anxiety among Chinese people.

Author： In your novel about Confucius.he returned to Mount Tai， trying to “uncoverthe mysteries of Chinese civilization”. Areyou hoping to re vitalize the ancient Chinesecultural values or to start some kind ofenlightenment movement？

Fei Dao： All great men at all times andaround the world would face some basicquestions： what is the universe， what ismankind， and what is the fate of mankind inthe universe？ Actions like sacrificing one'slife to explore the truth of the universe anddedicating oneself to the vast maj o rity ofordinary people always exist. So， I think thereare always some spiritual similarities betweenancient and modern times， or between thehistory and reality as well as the East and theWest. That's why I bring the ancient peopleinto the universe of science fiction， but thisdoesn't mean I advo c ate that ancient cultureshould be fully revived today. On the contrary，basically， I am a modernist and I am in favorof enlightenment and modernity. There is nodoubt that in today's China， there are many“pre-modern\" things， which I really dislike.I admire the essence of traditional culturalvalues， such as modesty and warmth betweenpeople， and valuing family relations， etc. Butour lifestyle has changed radically. When spaceexploitation， Cyborg， artificial intelligence getcloser and closer， we are entering a new eraof uncertainty， so that we need to create somenew values.

Author： After analyzing Han Song'sworks， you wrote that the “Gloomy China”was like a monster moving dynamicallyin a winding path and was the product ofinteraction between modern technology and“intrinsic logic of five thousand years” of theso-called “oriental spirit”. So， how do youdefine China？

Fei Dao： In the novel collection Chinese SciFi Blockbusters. I began to consciously combinethe sci-fi concepts with the fantasy of my countryOccasionally， I suddenly saw the possibilityof combining Chinese history and mythicalcharacters with various sci-fi ideas provided bythe western science fiction and Hollywood sci-fi movies. I bring ancient Chinese heroes， sages，and traitors into the world of science fiction，and let them face the collapsed universe， theextinguished sun， the fight against Matrix andother fates. I want to know what choices theywould make if they had faced these difficulties.Suddenly， I found another way of understandingmy own nation. In history teachers' mind， this isobviously a \"1\" way which doesn't allow me tohave a better understanding of the \"real\" history.However， as the famous saying that everyonequotes goes， \"AII history is contemporary history'So， I re-imagine the heroic feats who want to savelives， and let them re- enact in a sci-fi universe.This helps me generate a new style of sciencefiction and gives me goose bumps. This feelingconvinces me that the past was resurrectedon my skin. I feel that the China in my novelhas both gloomy and warm sides because I amstill optimistic about the world and I have hugeresp ect for the great and noble behaviors. I hopethat the world will be better and human will bemore enlightened.

Author： When did you start writling sciencefiction？ Why did you start？ And which writerinfluences vou the most？

Fei Dao： I started reading science fictionsince junior high school. I like this kind of fictionbecause it echoes with my unrealistic and quixoticpersonality. I like those worlds beyond daily life. So，the moment I began to write， I was sure that sooneror later I would write science fiction.

The writers who have the biggest influenceon me are basically writers in the 20th century. Iadmire the writers with extraordinary imaginationlike Lu Xun， Zheng Yuanjie， Wang Xiaobo， ItaloCalvino and Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I also likesome writers before the 20th century such as LeoTolstoy and Cao Xueqin. But I still feel that thewriters in the 20th century find an echo in mymind in terms of their inherent styles.

Author： Do you agree that Chinese sciencefiction has its unique features because the past，present and future China coexist at the same time？

Fei Dao： I agree. This statement has alreadybeen put forward in as early as Lu Xun's days.Even in today's China， it is still possible to see thecoexistence of the old behavioral patterns and themodern and avant-garde acts. This is a challengethat the Chinese must face. China has a vastterritory. Based on the vastness and diversity ofits territory， China embraces different time slicesand the things and values of different eras can finda living space. For instance， Lujiazui in shanghaiand many the poorest mountain villages representcompletely different time samples， which is veryinteresting. I don't think it is easy for foreignerswho haven't experienced the contrast to breakstereotypes about China.

Author： Han Song once said： \"China's realitycan be likened to a science fiction story.\" Do you haveany comments on this statement？

Fei Dao： I agree with this statement. Whatmakes his words ingenious is that it can beunderstood from many perspectives. When the pointof view is talked about for too many times， however，it may gradually lose its impact on ideology. Anyway，it is too difficult to understand China's reality. It's noeasier than learning the theory of relativity.

Author： In your opinion， do you think thatthe science fiction is more suitable than any otherliterary genre to describe China's future？ And howdo you deal with China's reality in your writing？

Fei Dao： Or rather， when a work tries to depictChina's future in a reasonable way or predict thefuture trend， it already has the characteristics ofscience fiction and can be considered as a sci-fiwork. Many people who have written sci-fi works areafraid that their works would be degraded therefore.And they emphasize the idea of \"borrowing sci-fiideas\" and \"with a sci-fi story cover\". This confusesme. What they write is literally a science fiction. Thereason why they refuse to admit is that people havetoo much prejudice against science fiction. Justas what I have said， it is too difficult to understandChina's reality. For example， maybe even a Nobellaureate in economics does not have a full picture ofthe housing prices in Beijing. So， in my writing， I stillcannot handle realistic problems well and this is mypersonal limitation.

Author： In your writing， what is the role of thefuture？

Fei Dao： The future is the moment I really lookforward to. Although I discuss death in my writing， I alwaysimagine that I can live for many more years when I am ingood health since I believe that the current unsatisfactorylife will be more ideal in the future and those terriblediseases that afflict people will be cured in the futureeventually. At this point， I lack a rigorous attitude as aresearcher should have in that I do not want to considerother possibilities of the future. This is what the futuremeans to me. So， the future in my writing is a magical placethat I can imagine without limitation through writing butcannot witness by myself. The future is a place where hopelies.