超越當今的思考
——伊麗莎白·德·包贊巴克訪談

汪碩/WANG Shuo

2019 年7 月8 日下午，值克里斯蒂安·德·包贊巴克與伊麗莎白·德·包贊巴克來華訪問期間，《世界建筑》于深圳對法籍巴西裔建筑師伊麗莎白·德·包贊巴克進行了專訪。

伊麗莎白·德·包贊巴克簡介

伊麗莎白·德·包贊巴克出生于巴西里約熱內盧，她于1970 年來到巴黎學習并獲得城市社會學及城市規劃雙重學科研究學歷。1987 年她成立了自己的公司，1977-1980 年，她第一次實現了避免“士紳化”現象的古老歷史中心的規劃改造。1984 年，她創建了首個跨學科的城市規劃工作室，領導巴黎南部5 個城市之間的規劃工作，促成了巴黎市區南部綠蔭步道項目的實施。至今她的作品遍布法國、摩洛哥及巴西等地。

幾十年來，她反對功能主義、技術官僚主義及新自由主義統治下的城市主義，捍衛社群主義與人本主義的設計思想。她的作品尊重城市與周邊環境的聯系，呼吁抵制個人主義的形式，立足社會學、人類學等多視角著手設計，以達到平衡建筑文化、城市規劃及建造成本等因素取得最優的外形設計。她始終關心保持地方的特性，在人與建筑內外部之間建立聯系，為消除城市中和個體間的障礙而辯護。

WA：首先對您入選即將于2020年里約熱內盧召開的國際建筑協會會議的榮譽理事表示祝賀，在接下來的一段時間內，理事會將有何舉措？

伊麗莎白·德·包贊巴克（簡稱伊麗莎白）：謝謝。在接下來的半年內，理事會將密集召開會議，圍繞環境危機、發展中國家面臨的城市問題等議題展開討論，第一次理事會會議于2019年8月舉行。屆時所有理事均會出席，如保羅·門德斯、阿爾瓦羅·西扎、海美·勒納等知名建筑師將展開圓桌會議討論有關可持續建筑等諸多議題，接下來我也會頻繁往返于法國與巴西間參加一系列研討活動。

WA：作為一名出生在巴西里約的建筑師，哪位巴西建筑師對您的建筑語言影響最為深遠？

伊麗莎白：無疑是麗娜·柏·巴蒂，還有很多如塞日爾·巴爾南多斯，他比奧斯卡·尼邁耶年輕一些，建筑語言受到賴特的影響很多，同時他也是理查德·羅杰斯的朋友，他們曾在一起研究建筑的靈活性。賽日爾·巴爾南多斯也是我家的朋友，我在小的時候，很喜歡聆聽他談論建筑。他對建筑有著獨到的見解。有一次他談到正在設計的一個項目，方案的概念很自由，戶型完全打破隔閡，環狀的無柱空間內只配備了水電等基礎設施，而每個人可以根據需要自由支配空間，這是一個很有意思的項目。當時聽他講述這個項目時，我夢想將來可以像他一樣設計每個人都能使用的建筑。當然，他對于社會中弱勢人群的處境的關注也給我以啟迪。他是一位著眼于現實的建筑師。于是，在巴西讀大學時，我所選的專業是社會學。

但在進入大學第一年，我因為一些原因不得不離開巴西來到法國，在這個時期，麗娜·柏·巴蒂進入在我的視野。她的設計思想十分純粹，質樸中蘊含魅力。她設計的巴西圣保羅藝術中心是一座開放的建筑，博物館所在的懸挑空間下方是一個完全可供人們自由使用的公共區域。藝術中心融合了文化、藝術、商業等各個功能，建筑的內涵可以如同一座城市般豐富。這不僅是一個聰明的設計，我認為其社會學意義超越了建筑學本身。還有一位建筑師阿方索·海蒂，他設計的巴西里約現代美術館也有同樣自由的公共空間，這幾位建筑師對我的影響都非同一般。

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1 伊麗莎白·德·包贊巴克/Elizabeth de Portzamparc

2 羅馬文化歷史博物館夜景/Musée de la Romanité de N?mes, night view, 2018（攝影/Photo : Wade Zimmerman）

WA：您剛才提到在移居巴黎后，選擇繼續學習社會學，除了受到賽日爾·巴爾南多斯的影響，是否還有其他原因？您認為社會學在建筑設計實踐方面起到了什么作用？

伊麗莎白：在回答你的問題之前，我想與讀者分享一下近期我正在撰寫的一本書，關于社會學與建筑的關系，與法國人類科學基金會主席米歇爾·維維洛卡合作完成。

我十分榮幸能夠參與其中。社會學是建筑行業中很重要的一門學科，早在1960-1970 年代的智利建筑學校中，教授建筑學的講師就是由一系列不同專業背景的建筑師構成，如詩人、哲學家、人類學家等，我認為在那個年代，人們就已經認識到建

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3 艾力普斯大廈實景，大巴黎西區亞特蘭蒂斯/The Ellipse Program, Atlantis Grand Ouest, day view, 2018（攝影/Photo: Takuji Shimmura）

4 雷昂布魯姆商業綜合體，克里希，巴黎，在建/Leon Blum, a vertical neighbourhood in Clichy （繪圖/Drawing: 2Portzamparc）

WA:First of all, I would like to congratulate you on your election as the member of Honorary Council of the International Union of Architects(UIA) Conference to be held in Rio de Janeiro in 2020. What measures will the Council take in the upcoming period?

Elizabeth de Portzamparc (EDP):Thank you. Yes,in the next half year, the Council will hold intensive meetings to discuss issues on environmental crisis and urban problems in developing countries. The first conference will be held in August this year. At that time, all the directors will attend to it, such as Paulo Mendes da Rochas, álvaro Siza Vieira,Jamie Lerner and other well-known architects.They will hold round table discussion on sustainable architecture and many other issues. After that, I will travel frequently between France and Brazil for a series of seminars.

WA: As an architect born in Rio, Brazil, which Brazilian architect has the most profound influence on your architectural language?

EDP:It is undoubtedly Lina Bo Bardi. There are also some others, like Sérgio Bernardes. He is younger than Oscar Niemeyer, with his architectural language much influenced by Frank Lloyd Wright. He's also a friend of Richard Rogers. Together, they studied

In the afternoon of July 8th, 2019, during the visit of Christian de Portzamparc and Elizabeth de Portzamparc to China, World Architecture inteviewed with this Brazilian French Architect Elizabeth de Portzamparc in Shenzhen.

About Elizabeth de Portzamparc

Elizabeth de Portzamparc was born in Rio de Janeiro. She came to Paris in 1970 to study sociology, then urban planning, which led her to perform a work based on the criticism of functionalism. Between 1977 and 1980, she realised the first rehabilitation of an old historical centre avoiding the phenomenon of gentrification. In 1984,as part of the construction plan, she created the first Intermunicipal Urban Planning Workshop where she led the preliminary exchanges between five cities in the south of Paris, exchanges that led to the creation of La Coulée Vertes du Sud de Paris. Her works are all over France, Morocco, Brazil, etc.

In opposition to the canons of functionalism and technocratic or neo-liberal reigning urbanism, she defends, for decades, a communitarian and intimate approach of the man and the society. Her projects carry a message of defence of our civilisation that combines both an affirmed ecological commitment and a call for resistance to the formatting of the individual and individualism.flexibility in architecture. Sérgio Bernardes is also a friend of my family. When I was young, I liked to listen to him talking about architecture. He had a unique perspective of architecture. On one occasion,he talked about a project being designed. The concept of the project was totally open. The apartment type completely eliminates the estrangement. The circular column-free space was only equipped with infrastructure of water and electricity. Everyone could freely decide the space according to their needs.It was an interesting project. When I heard him talk about this project, I dreamed that in the future I could design buildings for everyone like him. Of course, his concern about the people and society also inspired me. He is a realistic. Therefore, when I was studying in Brazil, my major was sociology. But in my first year of college, I had to leave Brazil for some reasons to France, when Lina Bo Bardi emerged in my vision. Her concept is pure and simple. She designed the Museum of Art of S?o Paulo in Brazil as an open architecture.Under the cantilevered space of the gallery is a public area where integrates various functions of culture,arts and commerce. The concept of the museum can be interpreted as a city. The idea is not just smart. In my mind, its sociological significance goes beyond architecture itself. There is another architect, Aへonso Reidy. He designed the Modern Art Museum of Rio de筑師需要在各方面開闊其視野。建筑是人們生活的場所，它應具有各種功能，建筑師有義務了解人們是如何生活、如何適應這個城市的，這些也是建筑的目標和意義，而這些不同的學科恰恰為建筑學提供了更加豐富的視角。

WA：當我們談到城市，我們不得不面對現今全球面臨的城鎮化帶來的一系列問題，您作為社會學及城市規劃雙學科的研究者，請談談您應對這些問題的設計實踐。

伊麗莎白：20年前，我第一個規劃社會學的研究就與“新城”有關，位于巴黎南部的伊芙琳圣岡坦市。這是一個老城更新的項目，雖然很小卻很典型。老城區是傳統意義上的村鎮，規劃新城在這座城市旁邊，但原有的規劃方案十分功能主義，存在很多缺陷，比如所有的功能聚集在一起，人行道十分狹窄等，設計沒有真正地為生活在這個區域的市民考慮，這非常糟糕。我提出的研究方案目的并不是復制一個老城，而是創造新的活力，所以新城需具備的應該是一些供大家相遇和交流的公共空間，使每個生活在其中的人感到舒適，而不僅僅是城市功能的簡單堆砌。令人欣慰的是，基于我的研究，城市管理者對原有的規劃方案進行了修改并實施。

在巴黎附近的還有一個小而重要的項目，是對安東尼老城中心圣薩蒂南的改造。安東尼是一座傳統的法國老城，小而典型，我和在這里生活和工作的人們一起做了這個項目。

多年以后我又拜訪了伊芙琳圣岡坦市，我發現隨著城市邊界的擴張，老城區沒有發生“士紳化”現象，保留了老城的活力。我們公司還拍攝了一部紀錄片，我個人對這個項目感到十分自豪。

WA：您在很多設計的項目中都十分強調“可持續性”，在臺中智慧運營中心項目（圖5-8）中，您為何將其定義為“第四代塔模”？

伊麗莎白：隨著城市人口的膨脹，對于建造高層塔樓的需求也隨之增強。但許多設計只是簡單的“堆疊”人群，結果是使人更加疏離。如何利用設計去“削減”或“補償”這種因高密度建筑所衍生的孤獨感？于是，重建社交生活的場所這一需求亟待解決。在臺中智慧營運中心項目中，我嘗試了不同的設計手段。首先是創造一個視線通透的空間，于是我在首層設計了一個透明的、功能更為自由的室內場所，將來這里可以作為藝術展覽的區域；由于臺灣地處熱帶且經常下雨，這里也可以成為遮陽避雨的公共場所。第二點，與博物館類相對內向封閉的建筑相比，我心目中的塔樓設計應該是相對開放的，像山丘一般，人們可以以步行的方式緩慢上升，與此同時，各種商店、畫廊布置在坡道兩側，每4層為一個間隔，其中點綴綠意盎然的小花園，人們可以在此交流、休憩。據我所知，將來的“臺灣馬拉松”比賽將會在這里舉辦！總之，這是一個非常有趣的項目，使我聯想到巴西很多建在山間的城市，于是我稱其為“第四代塔樓”，因為它創造了一個全新形態的“城鎮”體系——“立體社區”型城鎮。

WA：您在建筑設計中經常融入您對社會學和城市規劃的辯證分析，回到設計之初，您又是如何思考建筑本體與城市之間的關系呢？

伊麗莎白：我稱其為“城市建筑學”，這些年我在很多項目中嘗試在不同的基地背景下，以一種可持續的介入方式在建筑內部創造更多的公共空間。如競賽項目巴黎圣丹尼布耶爾的廊橋塔樓（圖9、10）和位于巴黎克里希城在建中的雷昂布魯姆商業綜合體（圖4），我認為建筑應該是城市空間的延伸，這也是我為什么稱其為“城市建筑學”。

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5 臺中智慧運營中心效果/Taichung Operation Intelligence Centre, day view, 2019

6 臺中智慧運營中心景觀平面/Taichung Operation Intelligence Centre, landscape plan, 2019

7 臺中智慧運營中心入口效果/Taichung Operation Intelligence Centre, entry view, 2019

8 臺中智慧運營中心廊橋效果/Taichung Operation Intelligence Centre, terrace view, 2019（5-8繪圖/Drawings: 2Portzamparc）Janeiro in Brazil, which also has the same concept of using free space. All of them had a significant impact on me.

WA:You just mentioned that you chose to continue studying sociology after moving to Paris. In addition to the influence of Sergio Bernardes, is there any other reason? How do you think sociology plays a role in your architectural practice?

EDP:Before answering your question, I would like to share with you a book I have recently been working on about the relationship between sociology and architecture, together with Michel Wieviorka,the Chairman of the Foundation de la Maison des Sciences de l'Homme. The book will be published at the end of this year.

I am very happy to have participated in the book. Sociology is an important discipline in architecture field. Early in 1960s and 1970s,the lecturers of the Chilean Architectural School included those with different backgrounds, such as poets, philosophers, anthropologists, etc. In those years, people already realized that architects needed more disciplines to broaden their vision in all aspects. Architecture is designing the place where people live. It should have various functions.Architects are obliged to understand how people live and how to adapt to the city. These are also the goals and significance of architecture. Different disciplines happened to provide a richer perspective for architecture.

WA:When we talk about city, we have to face a series of crises today brought by fierce urbanisation.As a scholar in sociology and urban planning, could you share something about your design practice in dealing with these problems?

EDP:Twenty years ago, my first important sociological research project in urban planning was a renovation project in a city named Saint-Quentinen-Yvelines, in the south of Paris. It was a traditional French historical city, small but typical and the original planning was of too much functionalism obviously with many defects. For example, all the functions were piled together and the sidewalks were very narrow. The design did not really consider the needs of the citizens living in the area. It was terrible. The purpose of my research project was not to replicate an old city but to create new vitality. In this regard, the new city should have create more public space for everyone to meet and communicate to make everyone living in here comfortable, instead of simply piling up urban functions. To my pleasure,based on my research, city managers have revised the original planning.

Another small but important project near Paris was the renovation of Saint Saturnin, Antony's historical centre. It was a traditional French historical city, small but typical and I have done this project with the people who were living and working in this place.

Years later, I revisited the city and found that with the expansion of the city boundary, there was no "gentrification" in the old city, the vitality of which retained. We have also made a documentary about it. I am proud of this project.

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9.10 廊橋塔樓，圣丹尼布耶爾，巴黎/The Bridge Tower Building in Saint-Denis Pleyel

（9,10繪圖/Drawings: 2Portzamparc）

與此同時，我的社會學背景不僅使我注重使用的質量，并且關注其他一些如士紳化、多代同堂、靈活性等關鍵的社會問題。歸根結底，社會學是我思考和概念構思的哲學基礎。

城市建筑學是一種更普遍的設計方法的一部分，我稱之為“鏈接建筑”，其目的在于關注每一種由建筑與其周圍環境之間引發的聯系。我所有的項目都旨在加強每一種聯系，無論是社會的、生態的、城市的還是歷史的。對我來說，建筑是通過空間來創造聯系的藝術。

WA：近期落成的法國尼姆的羅馬文化歷史博物館（圖2）的設計理念是什么？

伊麗莎白：當我站在尼姆的古羅馬競技場前思考，在這里設計一座博物館時意味著什么？它應是一種既表達某種存在但又與周圍的環境融洽的形式，同時又建立起了現代建筑語言與古羅馬文化間的某種對話（圖11、12）。古今的建筑語言有何差別？我認為首先是光。科技給予現代建筑足夠的光線，所以這應是一座明亮的建筑，這是其現代性的體現，而首層空間也應為視線可及的通透。其次，還需形成某種對立與虛實的互補——建筑的立面造型由無數印花馬賽克玻璃模擬橫向水波紋的曲面與羅馬時期的豎向巖石對比；通過玻璃對一天中不同時間光線的捕捉賦予建筑柔和的韻律之美與古代建筑堅實形成虛實的互補。而永恒與短暫的辯證性也可以解揭示人類的內心渴望：雖然我所設計的建筑的造型輕盈，但背后是我對設計的堅持，努力把握每個細節才能使我的作品可以呈現于世。這些看似對立，但對永恒的追求往往會蒙上一層去物質化的面紗。

WA：請您談談參與過的設計競賽中那些令您印象深刻的項目。

伊麗莎白：近期正在施工的巴黎布爾歇站投標時我的對手實力很強，如福斯特事務所、多米尼克·佩羅等，評委對他們的期待是顯而易見的。但我始終保持樂觀心態，全身心投入設計，結果是我贏得了競賽。同樣在尼姆的羅馬文化歷史博物館和臺中智慧運營中心的競賽時我也遇到了強勁的對手，比如在臺中智慧運營中心的競賽時我的對手中就有隈研吾。這些競賽取得的成功除了我自身的努力的因素外，我想也與越來越多的評委認同我對建筑與城市的理解有關。

WA：您與您的丈夫克里斯蒂安·德·包贊巴克成立了2Portzamparc事務所，在工作上您們的合作是怎樣的？在建筑設計方面您們是如何互動的？

伊麗莎白：有時候我們會一起參與城市設計的項目，城市設計項目需要不同的視角，一個人是很難全面把握這種尺度的設計，我和克里斯蒂安有不同的背景，這些不同的視野可以在城市設計中提供更多更全面的思考角度。但在建筑設計方面，我們的工作完全是互相獨立的。

WA：克里斯蒂安獲得普利茲克獎的身份對您的建筑設計是否有所影響？

伊麗莎白：當克里斯蒂安獲獎時，我由衷感到自豪和高興，我還為他組織了一場盛大的派對。通常來說這并不會影響我，因為希望獲得好結果的業主所在乎的是好的理念和設計而非“標簽”。我認為帶來好的設計是最重要的，好的設計項目具有可以更好地適應地域環境與文化的新理念。有很多建筑師非常優秀但并沒有獲得普利茲克獎，所以我相信在未來，越來越多人會更加關注方案本身的設計而超過建筑師本人的身份。

WA：最后請與執業建筑師分享一句您的座右銘。

伊麗莎白：永遠記住建筑的終極目標是為人們更美好的生活創造適宜的空間并為此不懈努力。

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11 羅馬文化歷史博物館實景/Musée de la Romanité de N?mes, day view, 2018（攝影/Photo: Sergio Grazia）

12 羅馬文化歷史博物館與遺址的關系/Musée de la Romanité de N?mes, relation, 2019（攝影/Photo: Serge Urvoy）

WA:You emphasised "sustainability" in many design projects. Why did you define it as "the 4th Generation Tower" in the project of Taichung Intelligent Operations Centre (TIOC)?

EDP:As the urban population grows, the demand for high-rise towers increases. However, many designs are simply "stacking" people, resulting in more separation. How do we use design to"compensate" the loneliness deriving from highdensity buildings? The demand for rebuilding"meeting point" needs to be addressed urgently. In the TIOC Project, I tried different ways of design.First, I created an interior space with almost transparent views and more flexible functions on the first floor, which can be used as an art gallery in the future. As it often rains in Taiwan, located in the tropical zone, here can also be a public place to shade and shelter from sun and rain. Second,compared with the enclosed museum buildings, the tower design should be relatively open, like hills, so that people can walk slowly up; and in meanwhile,all kinds of shops and galleries can be arranged on both sides of the ramp, with every four stairs as an interval, decorated with a garden full of greens and flowers, where people communicate and rest. As far as I know, the next future "Taiwan Marathon" will be held here! In a word, this is a very interesting project, which reminds me of these hilly cities in Brazil. So I call it "the 4th Generation Tower", as it creates a "city" with new forms, as the type of "threedimensional community".

WA:You often integrate critical thinking of sociology and urban planning into your architectural design. What do you think about the relationship between the architecture and the city in the beginning of design?

EDP:I call it "Urban-Architecture". Over years, I have been working to create more public spaces within buildings in a sustainable way, such as the Bridge Tower Building in Saint-Denis Pleyel,Paris and the Leon Blum Commercial Complex under construction in Clichy, Paris. I believe that architecture should be an extension of urban space.That is why I call it "Urban-Architecture".

At the same time, my sociological background forces me to keep in mind quality of use, but also some other determinant social issues like gentrification, multigenerational aspects, flexibility and so on. Finally, sociology is the basement of my thinking and conception philosophy.

Urban-Architecture is part of a more general approach that I call architecture of links, which aims to focus on every kind of relations induced by buildings and their environmental surrounding.All of my projects have the goal of enhancing every link, no matter if they are social, ecological, urban or historical. For me, architecture is the art of creating links through spaces.

WA:What is the design concept of the recently completed N?mes Musée de la Romanité in France?

EDP:When I was standing in front of Nimes'Ancient Roman Arena, I was thinking what it means to design a museum here. It should not only be a way to express an existence in harmony with the surrounding environment, but also a dialogue between modern architectural language and ancient Roman culture. What are the differences between ancient and modern architectural languages?I think it is light. Science and technology give modern architecture light. So it should be a museum with light, the embodiment of its modernity,and the first floor space should also be relatively transparent. Second, it requires the formation of certain opposition and complementation. As such,the facade of the building is designed with countless printed mosaic glass to simulate the curved surface patterned by transverse water ripples, in contrast to the vertical rocks in Roman times; in addition,glass captures light at different times of the day and gives architecture a soft rhythm of beauty,in complimentarily of the solidness of minerallike ancient architecture. In fact, the dialectics of Permanent and Ephemeral can also explain human's desire. Although the architecture appeared light and softness in shape, what is behind it was my adherence. These contradictory factors often create a dematerialised veil upon the pursuit of eternity.

WA:Could you please describe the projects that impressed you in the design competitions you participated in?

EDP:For example, my rivals of the competition of Gare Paris Le Bourget, currently under construction,are competitive, including Foster and Partners,Dominique Perrault, etc. The judges had obvious expectations to them, but I remained optimistic and devote myself to the design. It turned out that I won the bid. I also met strong competitors in the contests of N?mes Musée de la Romanité in France and Taichung Intelligent Operations Centre, where I met Kengo Kuma and Associates. In addition to my own efforts, I think the success is also related to that more and more judges acknowledged my understanding of the architecture and the city.

WA:We know that you and your husband,Christian de Portzamparc, established the firm of 2Portzamparcs. How do you work together? How do you interact in architectural design?

EDP:Sometimes we participate together in urban design projects which need diへerent perspectives. It is difficult for one person to fully manage the scale of design alone. Our diへerent perspectives can provide more profound urban design. But in architectural design, our work is totally independent.

WA:Has Christian's award for Pritzker Prize aへected you?

EDP:I was very proud and happy when Christian receive it! And I organised a very huge party for him!In general it does not affects me. Clients that are searching a good project will choose a good concept and design rather than a "label". I think the most important is that brings out a good design. Good design provides new ideas that can better adapt to the environment and culture. There are also many good architects who do not have the Pritzker Prize. I believe that in the future, more and more people will pay more attention to the design itself than to the identity of the architect.

WA:Would you like to share one of your mottos with architects in conclusion?

EDP:Always remember that the goal of architecture is to create a suitable space for the people of better life and make unremitting eへorts for it.