關于《大躍進》一書，姚東梅與斯蒂芬彼德曼的問答

您如何看尚《大躍進》這本書，您從中學到了什么？

2000年初我還在荷蘭上大學，在建筑專業學習，讀到這本書時我很激動，非常欽佩雷姆-庫哈斯（RemKoolhaas）的寫作，它為我這一代的荷蘭建筑師打開了一扇看向歐洲之外的大門，展示了一種獨特而嶄新的可能性：書的寫作的方不是站在枯燥的歷史角度表達想象中的觀念或理論，而是抓住事物發生的關鍵瞬間進行呈現，讓人們理解身邊鮮活的建筑環境如何形成：不僅聚焦“漂亮”或“優美”的方面，而且通過一些更客觀的衡量標準，如規模、金錢和速度找尋現實中的實踐和意義；不是用指責的方式而是以開放性思維面對日益緊張的世界，首先投入精力了解一些事情，然后共同探討；正如馬克思主義所言“從事實中找到真理”，這種方法極具啟發性。不過我當時并沒有完全理解書中的內容，對我來說中國很遙遠，我曾懷疑自已是否會像熟悉歐洲地理一樣了解中國地理，但我現在可以自豪地說已經越來越接近了。

2.九月初，在香港研討會之后（大既進》的作者們重訪練三角大區，目的是什么？

當我本人對中國有了更多的了解之后，再次拿出這本書閱讀時，真正感受到了書中所呈現的研究方法的創新性：那時候互聯網尚未出現，作者們依靠傳統調查方法完成研究，提出極為相關的洞見和預測，它幫助人們很早就看清楚中國長期發展所面臨的許多重大的根本性挑戰和機遇。香港研討會之后《大躍進》的作者們重訪珠三角/大灣區，旅行的目的是重新考察20年后這片土地上實際發生了哪些變化，從事這項研究的小組就像是火山學家，冒著風險反復實地考察一個噴發著巖漿的火山口多年來的變化。從政治在建筑中的作用，到經濟基礎和規劃模式，再到金融與房地產的關系，通過與建筑師和官員進行交流，再次嘗試客觀地審視城市與建筑發展的實質。建筑的一個根本缺點是人們幾乎不了解設計被建造出來之后會發生什么。建筑史仍然過多地關注“亮點”和歷史成就，而缺乏對建筑如何隨時間發展的理解。也就是說，幾乎沒有任何關于建筑物或建筑物部件壽命等關鍵知識的系統了解。中國建筑發展如此之快，其過程尚未來得及考慮留給未來什么遺產，建筑消耗巨大的資源和能源，如何讓城市與建筑變得更加可持續，是一個必須應對的巨大桃戰。

3.賬和作者門如何看待珠三角過雨（如流訓，廣州、海東）的成功與失吸？

今年當我與小組作者們一起回訪該地區時，看到一些成就與不足。失敗的地方在于建造過程中造成了大量的浪費和生態破壞，導致地方特色和歸屬感消失，普通的高層建筑的玻璃塔樓結構與過度人工化如地毯般的地面缺乏有機關聯。成功之處在于基礎設施質量的提高，生活條件和方式的改善，在未來的可持續發展包括注重生態和氣候變化等方面存在巨大潛力。另外，在重新認識以及再利用城中村的過程中，存在很多機會重新思考建筑類型、特點和未來生

.Row dd ycs like the hook GLF what Bave you fearnd from lt？

The first time I read the book I was studying architecture in the Netherlands in the early 2000s.I was a great admirer of the writing of Rem Koolhaas so l was thrilled to read it. However I think I wasn’t able to capture the fullextent at the time.China still felt very distant for me.I remember wondering if I would ever be as familiar with Chinese geography as with European geographyI am proud to say that I am geting closer. What I learnt from it at the time was mainly what writing about architecture couid also be; not historical and dry but instead trying to grasp a moment of implementation. How all architecture is all around us， that its alive. also admired how it was looking not necessarily always at things that are ‘nice’orgood’ but through by other more objective measures like scalemoney and speed.It echoes a bit of the Marxist axiom learning truths from facts’， which I appreciate. It’s about capturing actual practice and reality and grasping their meanings，rather than imagined ideals or theories. As for more architects of my generation in the Netherlands it also opened the door towards looking more outside of the European context As such it was a truly unique and new possibility.Specifically seeing to growing tensions in the worid this makes this work and the open-mindedness that it fundamentally exhibits very inspiring to me. It’s looking at the world not by pointing fingers， but putting in the energy to first understand somthing and then discuss together，

2.Eary Seplember yos organized semisars in H and a trip fr the authors af GLF o res a PRbvoewhat is e prpo？

When I read the book again 20 years later l really struck me how innovative the approach was： how many significant fundamental challenges and opportunities that define Chinese development at large over time were already recognized It felt like the group who did the research were like volcanologists studying an erupting crater with lava.From the role of politics in architecture， to the economic underpinnings and planning models.Also more precarious on the ground observations about dubious financial practices were researched already back than.They did this research also by hand without all the online support we have now，but came with extremelyrelevant insights and predictions The purpose of the trip was to reconsider what actually happened again by trying to look objectively at the build substance and by talking with architects and officials.

I think one fundamental shortcoming in architecture is that there is almost no understanding of what happens with the buildings we design.Architecture history still focusses too much on’highlightsand historic achievements and not yet on the understanding of how buildings develop over time.Le.there is hardly any systematic or-critical knowledge about the lifespan of buildings or building parts. I see this as a huge challenge connected to become more sustainable in our building practice.I know Chinese construction has been so fast that thinking about future heritage seems unlikelybut given the enormous resource and energy use of construction this is crucial.

3.How do yu heauthers see te socess and flues of the PR ctes leZZH Dongouan in comparisoe to what tesook show in the aitther’s frst tnp

When we travelled with the group through the region now there was a mixed impression of success and failures.Success in terms of that so much was achieved in improving living conditions， the quality of the infrastructure and new lifestyles that emerged. Also in terms of future perspective many good opportunities for future development to become more ecologically sensitive and climate considerate were noted.The failures were considered more in a lack of identity and own-ness of the place we saw， a lot of areas looked like a generic carpet with glass towers structures or generic high rises where the context with the ground was lost. There was a lot of waste in this process and ecolog cal damage done. In the re 活方式的可能性。從這個意義上說：我認為我們對該地區下一步 的發展持樂觀態度。

總的來說，該團隊幾乎認不出他們在20世紀90年代訪問過的任何地方，在東莞還有相對多一些的原始廠房保留下來，但與以前相比特別是深圳和珠海，現在已經與之前完全不同。第一次現代化的氛圍和瘋狂的本質已經以某種值得肯定的方式消退了。現在是時候反思和重新思考。這也意味著要好好討論建筑對經濟的價值：建筑是刺激經濟增長的金融產品，還是創造社會的有價值元素？

appreciation of re-use and urban villages there is a lot of potential for retbinking typological opportunities and identity and Tuture life styles. In that sense I think we also were optimuslic fora next step forthe area.

In general，The leam hardly recognized any of the places they visited in the 1990s.In Dongguan there were more original factory buildings left， but specificall in Shenzhen and Zhuhai were unrecognizable compared to before.The atmosphere and frantic nature of the first modernization has most definitely subsided， but in a good way. Now it’s time to reflect and rethink This olso means have a good discussion on the value of porstruction on the economy：are bulldingsfinarcial products that spur growth or afso valuable elemeots that create sootettes？

4.和用什么選還在這T時候重返三角？

自1996年小組首次實地考察以來，已經過了28年。分析了在更大的地緣政治背景下發生的事件，特別是市場經濟的起、全球化和當前的全球脫鉤后，庫哈斯認為中國的規劃和建筑正處于一個非常重要的轉折點上：這是一個通過回訪加深理解的好時機.歐洲和中國之間的聯系是至關重要的，特別是在像現在這樣的緊張和不安時期。這不是庫哈斯第一次被邀請回訪三角洲，但這一次得以成行離不開原作者小組以及該地區東道主的熱情支持

目前高速的發展遇到瓶頸，房地產危機之下很多中國建筑師們在苦苦掙扎，建筑系學生對就業市場的前景也變得不那么樂觀，這正是一個靜觀井反思已經取得的成就和尚未實現的壯志的機會，也是重新思考工作方式并計劃未來的時刻。提出更多的問題：我們為什么要建設，為誰建設？我們如何看待未來100年在中國的生活？我們應保持聚焦城市，繼續建造毫無新意的通用模板建筑還是能夠研發出更有趣的共同生活方式，即包括更多的鄉村機會或新形式社區？作為一個研究過幾百年前的歐洲古建筑史的人，我并不那么悲觀，要以歷史的角度看待發展，為這些問題尋找更好的答案是目前中國的城市研究者與建筑師們刻不容緩的工作。

3.Why dn yau and Ram chansris timetg do she GiT upcnte？

I was trained as a historian focusing an old European architecture by iaoking at buudings that were a few hundred years old 28 years since the initial fieldtrip ihe group did in 1996.considering Shenzhen construction speed felt like a good moment to actually start understanding It more deeply Also exacily because architecture in China with the problems In the real estale crisisis at a very important intersection There are many architecs in China struggling and architecture students have become less optimistic about the outlook o the job market. Maybe it’s too easy to say from afar， but I am less pessimistic. This Is really a moment to stand stil，look and refleet on what was achieved and what wasnt and to rethink the ambitions， ways of working and future plans. Asking more questions： why do we huild and for whom？ How do we think about the next 100 years and living in China？ Are we stuck with the current urban focus， the uninspired generic template buildings， or can we develop more interesting ways of living together that ie.include more countryside opportunities or new forms of communities？

Rem also sees that China seems to be at a turning point in terms of thinking about architecture and planning. He has also been analyzing what has happened in the larger geopolitical context specifically the rise of the market economy globalization and the current global decoupling The connection between Europe aad China specifically in limes of stress and upsel like now， is crucial. I’s nol lhe firsI lime he has been asked to pome back Io the Delta， but given the enthusiasm from the original group and the hosts in the region， this was simply loo good to pass，

5.對當前所房地產意機，您對中國新源知硬歡所有計藝建！

不要落入試圖保持現狀或試圖回到早期模式的陷阱。因此，新一輪的“從事實中找到真理”是非常必要的。幾十年的現代化進程帶來了巨大的進步，但現在又進入一個新的階段。我建議可以更多關注資源利用，努力尋求更多可持續發展模式，其實這與中國人崇尚的和諧自然理念一致。需要重新設想如何處理未完工建筑或空冒樓盤：開發更具實驗性的空間類型，即把愜意和更慷慨的生活方式與工廠式空間相結合，營造新的社區結構：或重新與農業和自然聯結，重新思考博物館應該是什么。同時，努力擴大建筑師的視野和能力，發揮建筑師的想象力，積極參與政策討論和社會活動，更多地發表意見。最后也想對西方說：應試著保持開放的心態接受彼此，共同減少對地緣政治的偏執。

這也意味著中國以及世界其他地方的教育模式需要進一步調整。目前，建筑師仍然受到過多的巴黎布扎傳統和藝術訓練。雖然設計中總是有藝術成分，但是實際更多的挑戰是應該如何加深對現有材料的理解，設計概念應從建筑環境的綜合考慮出發，且需學會與業主溝通，為好的設計理念據理力爭，并不是要挑戰業主，而是要確保與他們的期待保持平衡，避免建筑師做出不能兌現的設計。可能還需要重大的政策修訂，著眼于促進更好的客戶關系獎勵環保意識和明智的設計決策。習近平總書記也曾多次指出，需要批評的聲音，需要敢于標新立異的人。

歷史告訴我們建筑師是一個恒常變化的職業，從這個意義上說不應有太多恐懼。時代對建筑師的挑戰在于需要建筑師發揮主觀能動性，以其獨特的洞察力和創造力，挖掘能夠促進人居環境改善和社會進步的路徑。例如關注建筑的老化：創造新的社區，并致力于建筑之外不同的商業模式。我相信建筑師是社會生活中不可或缺的職業，其工作的復雜性決定了這一職業不可能被高級人工智能所代替。

5With thie men el-ucnse wm HeMce pou woa gvete iheCames pm AIcniiRMa1

To not fallinto the trap of rying to keep things as they are orevent to try ta get back to the earlier modelsHere is where a new raund of ‘seeking truth from factsis very necessary Decades of modernization has brought immense progress， but now there is a new phase. would advise to try to seek tor example more circular development models where more altenlion for resource usage is key， whjch I feel is also quite akin to Chinese models of harmony and consideration of nature But also to seek a more active role in reimagining what couid be done with the unfinished buildings or vacant developments. Develop more experimental typological conditions i.e.combining pleasant and more generous lfestyles with factory working. developing new community struclures， or reconnecting with agriculture and nalure. or rethinking what a museum should be， At the same time try to expand the horizon of what an architect is and can do，I.e.become more vocal in political discourse and social movements Make use of the abilty of imaginatioo which architects offer And lastly. more forWestern’ sides try to keep an open mind and try find each olher and collectively focus less on geopolitical conditions.

This means that educational models in China and elsewhere willneed further adaplation AL current architects are still toomuch trained from the beaux-ars traditions as artistsWhile there always is an artistic component to desigh， the actual challenge wil be more towards deepenng the understanding of existing materials to pul lhe environment before a concept and to also learning to say no ta clients. No to be annoying to cllents per se， but to ensure their ambitions are balanced and arohitects overpromise and under delivet It probably also needs significant policy revisions looking at promoting better client hood， rewarding environmental awareness and sensible design decision making As party secrelary Xi Jinping has also stated many tmes， if requires critical voices and people who dare to do things differently.

Welearn from history that tie protessioh of the architect has always been changing and in that sense there is not much too fear or to be pessiostic aboutit’s chalierging yourself to find the spoT where you are most useful to socieyio progressto knaw where your creaiive energy wll givehe most. Forme thal is in loking at aging of builings， at creafing new communities， and working on different business models that go beyond bullding.I do think we willalways need architects， as the complexity is one thal is also for advanced Al tools way too dificu.

The Xin’an Catholic Foundling Hospital： An Anomaly in Shenzhen’s Urban Origin